French Flower corvettes

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lmah	French Flower corvettes	Lead	[-]
Posts: 5 (02/01/08 16:13:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None Hello, France ordered 22 Flower corvettes in 1939-1940. Note : these ships are different from the RN units used later by the Free French (Commandant d'Estienne d'Orves, Aconit, Alysse, Commandant Detroyat, Commandant Drogou, Lobelia, Mimosa, Renoncule, Roselys). - 10 units ordered at Smith's Dock (4 in June 39, 6 in August 39) : La Bastiaise was sunk on 22 June 1940, the rest went to the RN (La Malouine (ex MN La Malouine), Fleur De Lys (ex MN La Dieppoise), Nasturtium (ex MN La Paimpolaise), Snowdrop, Tulip, Verbena, Veronica, Wallflower, Zinnia) - 6 units ordered at Harland & Wolff (in April 40) : all of them went to the RN (Abelia, Alisma, Anchusa, Armeria, Aster, Bergamot) - moreover, 6 units were ordered to shipyards in France (in December 39) : 2 were cancelled and 4 felt into Germans hands I would like to know what was the fate of the order for 10 units from Smith's Dock ? Was the order cancelled somewhere in May or June 1940 ? Or was the order transferred to the Royal Navy after the fall of France (as was apparently the second order for 6 units from Harland & Wolff) ? In which document can this be found ? Thanks !
Mark Walters FCCA Member		#1	[-]
Posts: 999 (24/01/08 18:05:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hi Imah The ships you mention were all transferred to the RN on completion: HMS La Malouine survived the war and was broken up in 1947 HMS Fleur de Lys was sunk by U-206 off Gibraltar on 14/10/41 HMS Nasturtium survived the war and was transferred to the Royal Hellenic Navy in 1948. She was converted to a lighthouse tender and renamed St. Lykoudis. Her fate is unknown. HMS Snowdrop survived the war and was broken up on the River Clyde, Scotland in 1949 HMS Tulip survived the war and was converted to a whale catcher. She was sold to Uruguay, Japan and Norway and ultimatley broken up in Germany in 1965 HMS Verbena survived the war as a merchant ship and was broken up in 1951 HMS Veronica was transferred to the USN in 1942 and renamed Temptress but returned to the RN in 1945. She survived the war as a cargo ship and was broken up in 1951 HMS Wallflower survived the war and was converted to a whaler. She was broken up in Grimstad in 1966. HMS Zinnia was sunk by U-564 in the eastern Atlantic on 23/8/41 Hope this info. helps All the best Mark
hjh43		#2	[-]
Posts: 14 (25/01/08 16:12:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hi, If I'm not mistaken, five of the ten Flowers transfered to the US Navy in the spring of 1942 were originally ordered by the French Navy. K37 HMS Veronica - PG62 USS Temptress, Smith's Dock K03 HMS Heliotrope - PG63 USS Surprise, John Crown & Son : N.E. Marine K24 HMS Hibiscus - PG64 USS Spry, Harland & Wolf K73 HMS Arabis - PG65 USS Saucy, Harland & Wolf K55 HMS Periwinkle - PG66 USS Restless, Harland & Wolf I know that I could be wrong on this but I wanted to pass it along anyway.
Mark Walters FCCA Member		#3	[-]
Posts: 1000 (26/01/08 14:00:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hi hjh Of those five you list only Veronica was originally destined for the French Navy. The others were RN but transferred to the USN by a reverse Lend/Lease process
hjh43		#4	[-]
Posts: 15 (27/01/08 18:20:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hi Mark, I stand corrected. Thanks, Jay
lmah		#5	[-]
Posts: 2 (01/02/08 12:55:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hello, Thanks for your answers. hjh43, where did you get this information ? uboat.net gives the same names for ships ordered for the French and ending in the USN. Mark, you indicate that Veronica was originally destined for the French Navy, but what were the British names for the other French-ordered ships ? The names I gave above for the ships under RN service are only a suggestion, I'm not sure about them. What is not clear is if the French orders were still under way in June 40, before the surrender. In a French document (on June, 1st), it is written that construction of the Flower has to be continued (and was a priority). Another document on 25 June indicates that, apart from the 4 first units (which received a French name), the ships build in the UK were not laid down. Another source indicated that the French order was possibily cancelled in May. I thought a British document could give clues about these French orders ...
hjh43		#6	[-]
Posts: 18 (01/02/08 18:03:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hi Imah, I am interested in knowing more about the 18 Flower Corvettes that served with the US Navy. Of these, 10 were transferred to the US in the spring of 1942. The information I have is from uboat.net. Specifically, I did the following: I went to http://uboat.net. I then clicked on the following items in succession: The Allies, Allied warships, more types, Corvettes, Flower. At this point there should be a list of vessels organized by Navy. Scroll down to Royal Navy and then to the name of the ship. For example, go to Arabis and click on the name. In the entry for the Arabis, you should see the entry "Ordered for the French Navy" in the description of the vessel. Next. look up the individual histories for Veronica, Heilotrope, Hibiscus, and Periwinkle and you should see a similar entry regarding being ordered for the French Navy. As I mentioned earlier, I could be wrong on this as Royal Navy Forums seems to be the authority on Corvettes. I am curious about how this topic is resolved. Regards, Jay
Mark Walters FCCA Member		#7	[-]
Posts: 1003 (02/02/08 16:09:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hi Imah I do not have access to the specific documented evidence you seek. If these documents survive at all they are likely to be preserved within the Public Records Office in London. You can check the Public Record Office collection online at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.htm The RN names you gave for corvettes constructed at Smiths Dock are correct and any ships which were not completed for the French after the French surrender were simply constructed for the RN as the corvettes were still needed by the RN. Regards Mark
homeboy8853		#8	[-]
Posts: 9 (03/02/08 22:24:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Found this on the war memorial in downtown St Pierre, the capital of the French colony of St Pierre and Miquelon off the south coast of Nfld. Last Edited By: homeboy8853 03/02/08 22:32:30. Edited 1 times.
hjh43		#9	[-]
Posts: 19 (04/02/08 04:11:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hi Homeboy8853. I tried to enlarge the iumage without success. Even if I could enlarge the image, I'm not sure it would be of any help. My French is worse than my my Spanish, and that is pretty bad. And my latin, - well forget that. What does it say in plain English? That is, if you would care to contribute. It would be very helpful. Thanks, Jay
lmah		#10	[-]
Posts: 3 (04/02/08 12:38:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	hjh43 : yes I did the same thing on uboat.net. But another source (French military source) gives different names ... homeboy8853 : the commemorative plaque (I bet this is a plaque) in Saint Pierre and Miquelon is probably related to the lost crew of FFL Mimosa, which was sunk by an U-boot. Most French sailors came from the same village on the island. See http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/5535.html Mark, it seems not easy to find information on the Public Records Office. You have to order the documents, you can't simply see them. Anyway, searching for Flower corvettes doesn't gave me lots of documents. "any ships which were not completed for the French after the French surrender were simply constructed for the RN as the corvettes were still needed by the RN" I agree. Let me explain why I'm asking this : I'm working in a team which is currently writing an alternative history based on France NOT surrendering in June 40, but instead continuing the fight from the colonies. As you may imagine, a BIG change here is the availability of the French fleet (no ships seized by the RN, no Mers-el-Kebir fighting, no Toulon scuttling, ...). So I was wondering what would have occured with the Flower corvettes. If you are interested, I can give some links related to our story.
hjh43		#11	[-]
Posts: 20 (06/02/08 17:09:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Imah, Your French military sources are probably correct. I do not know the sources for uboat.net. But I don't think this contradiction should detract from the value of the web site. I think that uboat.net site deserves a lot of credit for the vast amount of information on thousands of vessels from many nations. The site seems to consist of a small group of enthusiastic people lead by Gudmundur Helgason from Iceland. (Coincidently, I knew a Gudmundur "Goodman" Helgason from Iceland in 1990. Not the same person because dates/ages don't match.) Actually, they should be commended for their contributions. Imah, your project is very interesting and I hope you would keep this site posted on your progress. Regards, Jay
lmah		#12	[-]
Posts: 4 (07/02/08 07:00:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Yes, uboat.net is a tremendous site. Concerning our alternative history project, you'll find the main (French) site here : http://www.1940lafrancecontinue.org/ The English archive is here : http://www.francefightson.org/
homeboy8853	St Pierre corvette plaque	#13	[-]
Posts: 11 (04/05/08 17:49:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The plaque lists the names of those lost on Corvettes "Alysse" and "Mimosa".

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